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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 4:05 am 
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Just a quick question:

Is it ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to include the Louise/Janine relationship, and if so, must it have evolved to the point of becoming a marriage? Because in my little idealized mind, rgbforever's perfect canon does not even acknowledge that AT ALL...that whole hot mess of a scene in GB2 is just *poof* obliterated...is that so wrong?

Sorry but, I just can't stomach it. If I do need to acknowlege it, it is merely a weak moment of judgement, something done under the influence of some mind-altering drug (alcohol, prescription medicine) and if it is a relationship, a brief, short one at best...but never resulting in marriage...just wondering why that has to be "canon"? Because while it may fit into some people's ideas or fanfiction, that's fine (i.e. make the reunion of E/J that much more romantic) but to me, it just taints their coming together all the more...but again, that's just 'to me'...I just don't see Janine as the 'settliing' type...

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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 6:26 am 
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Fritz wrote:
Interesting thoughts.

At the moment, there isn't mention of an EGB cartoon in-story, so that could be done if we really wanted to. Could be one of those things explaining why Venkman still lived in LA most of the time before 2001/2002.

Early on I thought about suggesting having the events of EGB happen in 1996, but decided against it; I figured I'd pushed my luck with the 1983/1984 issue, and decided to accept concensus on this one. I wouldn't change the 1997 date now, though--after five years of fan fics would be about as difficult as shoving a Marty Stu Fifth Ghostbuster into 1991.

The other idea would be that, not being the big superstars the original guys were in the 1980's, they may not have had a cartoon?

I'd be interested in seeing what Rosey says before we do anything with this.


The idea of their being an EGB cartoon within the GB universe is absolutely repellent to me. I'd much rather just go on assuming that there isn't one - it never occurred to me.

Venkman stayed in LA because he had a family there and his children got settled. I've always found it hard to believe that he'd be so cruel as to uproot a boy in his early teens, but since fan sentiment is apparently unanimous on that I went as far as writing the story.

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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 9:55 am 
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rgbforever wrote:
Just a quick question:

Is it ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to include the Louise/Janine relationship, and if so, must it have evolved to the point of becoming a marriage? Because in my little idealized mind, rgbforever's perfect canon does not even acknowledge that AT ALL...that whole hot mess of a scene in GB2 is just *poof* obliterated...is that so wrong?

Sorry but, I just can't stomach it. If I do need to acknowlege it, it is merely a weak moment of judgement, something done under the influence of some mind-altering drug (alcohol, prescription medicine) and if it is a relationship, a brief, short one at best...but never resulting in marriage...just wondering why that has to be "canon"? Because while it may fit into some people's ideas or fanfiction, that's fine (i.e. make the reunion of E/J that much more romantic) but to me, it just taints their coming together all the more...but again, that's just 'to me'...I just don't see Janine as the 'settliing' type...

*hops off soapbox*


You know, I definitely see your point. I even agree to a great extent.

Clinically Insane was actually the first Ghostbusters fan fic I wrote, a little more than five years ago, when I first got into the online fandom (I didn't have an internet-worthy computer before that). I hadn't really intended it, at the time, as something that would become a fanon cornerstone. I was just playing around with some ideas.

Idea number one, of course, was sticking a middle finger at Ramis. Basically saying "Okay...fine...let's have her marry Louis and see how much she likes it. Howabout...not much at all?" She did what Ramis and the obsessive whackjob EgonStalkers wanted her to do...and hated it.

(I counterpointed it later with Nodus, showing Egon living the life of perfect logic some think he should live, and not only hating it just as much...potentially turning him into a madman.)

And then there was the sticking point of "Just why in the hell did she stay away for so long?" That didn't seem in character at all--this provided one possible answer to that question, and of course to the whining of some fans about Louis not even being mentioned in EGB. Why would he even want to show up under that circumstance?

I posted the story on GBN and it, for it's time, the best-recieved story I did. That made it much more difficult to ignore it and it's ramifications.

It didn't answer every question. Like what would get her away from Egon and back to Louis in the first place; Ben would come up with a workable solution in As Dreams Fade. Short answer: brain damage, blotting out most of her memories to before "Janine, You've Changed", back to before Egon admitted his feelings and thus knocked Louis the rest of the way off the radar.

I admit I get squicked out myself if I think too hard about the month or so she was actually happy in that relationship. But I put up with it because of a couple of mitigating factors

1. It actually acknowledges GB2 more than "pure" RGB/EGB ever did. Pretty much until the Official Material started bombarding us with f***ing retcons and reboots, my intent was to use everything produced with Columbia/Sony's approval.

2. It was over, done with, and history six years before the story was even written. Good wins in the end. Egon and Janine get married, have twins, and basically live happily ever after.

3. Some interesting stories spun out of it. In addtion to Kingpin's aforementioned "As Dreams Fade", we got the conflicted but ultimately sympathetic Louis seen in Hearts In Eclipse, Chronicles of Gozer, and Yami Mirai's "Love At Last?". That might have been harder to pull off if he'd just remained nothing more than the loser on the fringes lusting after Dana.

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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 11:01 am 
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Interesting points, but I still feel compelled to make this observation: couldn't acknowledging Ramis' jacked up vision, and the great fanfics that have come out of the possible Louis/Janine hookup, all still exist without the actual MARRIAGE? Because to me, nothing is actually further from canon, then Janine 'settling' into a marriage, going through with the planning, taking the vows, finding the dress, doing all the fun stuff that comes with planning a wedding, with any joy in her heart if she truly doesn't LOVE Louis? Somewhere along the lines, the Janine I imagine her to be, would have her "WTF am I doing?" moment and cancel the whole thing. Not to mention, I truly don't think the other three guys would let her go through with it. Another point is, why would she do something that may possibly turn Egon off her completely, forever? Totally ruin ANY chance of hooking up in the future (since everyone enters marriage planning on it lasting 'forever')? That is a huge risk I just can't see her taking. I think she would always want to keep the door open just in case he comes to his senses. By marrying someone else, entering into a sacred covenant with another man, especially Louis, a close associate, no doubt, she is completely closing the door and possible obliterating any chance in the future at all with our boy Spengs, non? As lonely and frustrated as she is, I just can't see her being that stupid. Marriage is just such a big step, and one that I don't see our Janine taking lightly...maybe I have too high of an opinion of her, but given her strength, drive and examples of extreme courage in the past, I just can't see her being that desperate, delusional, and wishy-washy, I'm sorry.

As for an adequate explaination as to why she stayed away so long, is it not possible to take that same stubborn nature that apparently, allowed her to stay married to Louis for years *dry heave* be the same stubborn nature that compelled her to stay away from Egon from sheer frustration of the situation? That to me seems much more true to canon IMO, as Janine Melnitz as we know and love her (read: Seasons 1 & 2, and even certain points in the later seasons) wasn't that delusional as to go through with such a commitment without having her heart 100% in it. Why did she stay away? I'll tell you why she stayed away: she was fed up. Fed the f**k up with Egon's emotional dysfunction. Fed up with being ignored. Fed up with not having her feelings reciprocated, fed up with getting signs that Egon likes her, but him never following through with it out of fear. Waking up one morning after years of fawning over a man who doesn't return his feelings and going "WTF am I doing? What am I wasting my time and life for?" Every woman has their breaking point, and Janine had reached hers. (I believe there is a fanfic out there that would explain this moment called "Perfect Order" or something like that)...She figured why continue in this little charade, this relationship going nowhere, continue to expose herself to heartache...why not take the ending of Ghostbusters Inc. as a sign and opportunity to completely disengage herself and 'trrrrry' to find happiness with other men. Does she date while she's gone? Yes. Does she even dabble a little with Louis on a few dates, trying to make something out of nothing? Why not? But MARRIAGE?!!? When her heart is not truly into it? I just don't see her as that flaky. I'd see her rather as, living a "Sex in the City" lifestyle for a while, trying to (unsuccessfully) fill a void...but at least she's not suffering in a miserable, loveless marriage for years. I'd like to think she had a smidgen of happiness and fun in the years between GB1 and 2. I can also see her thinking that marrying someone that Egon actually KNOWS might ruin her chances with him forever. Just might possibly, give him more reason to NOT find her attractive. She was never the girly type to 'have to get married' so I just can't see her going through with it. Not even because of Egon, but because she doesn't truly love Louis. And just thinking of her staying so long, her being so miserable for so long...I just can't envision it. Nothing I've seen in EGB has lent itself to her coming out of marriage...it is only clear that she was 'away'. Away trying to live her best life, away trying to get some space and clear her head, away trying to find a replacement for Egon...but not away sharing a marriage bed with Louis Tully while Egon putters around the flrehouse alone. Please God, no.

If you haven't guessed already, I'm a die-hard romantic who just got married a year ago, which may explain why I feel so strongly about this. I can't imagine going through that whole process half-hearted. And call me Cruise*, but I can't see that from Janine either. In my idealistic little world/canon, Janine dates Louis, tries to make it work with Louis, but saves the first (and only time) she walks down an aisle in a white dress and says those magic words "I do" for the only man she's ever loved. A truly sacred relationship, worthy of a truly sacred moment. :ej4ever:

Anyways, back to the real world I go. :D

*my new way of saying "call me crazy"


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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 2:29 pm 
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well knowing Louis from GB1 he would have a cheep as wedding as possible .

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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 2:33 pm 
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Hey, you guys started the therapy session without me, lol!

I loved reading your posts RGB. There’s a lot I want to say about Louis and Janine, but first I have to say that I really like Fritz’s stories, they are dramatic and real and well thought out and contain a lot more human emotion and realism than the majority of fanfiction out there today. I am in awe of Fritz’s ability to have each character speak their own voice in the omnibus timeline and to see how everyone’s decisions affected everyone’s life in the close knit group that really is like a family. They are special and I don’t want you to change anything or stop writing because I love reading your stuff.

Now, I have to say that I wish Janine had never married Louis either. In my mind, how I worked out the events is extremely different from what is currently out there. And I am fixin’ to make everyone hurl when I say this…

In my mind Egon was in on that little scene in GB2. I know but bear with me.

First of all, imagine yourself in Egon’s shoes. And lets assume that you married Janine way back when in a tacky wedding parlor in Vegas, and imagine that you have had to constantly, for years, put your hopes for a family and a normal life with your life on hold because everywhere you look there are ghosts, goblins, demons, and demi gods out to make sure that you never have a family, or any kind of life. They are out to make your life miserable because you make their afterlife miserable.

Okay, so also imagine that all through this time your wife doesn’t really understand, although she does try to understand. She thinks that you just don’t want children, or that you job is more important, or that you regret marrying her, and she falls under the spell of a creature that wants to help her get her husband back. Just as she begins this process, however, something happens and you find yourself no longer busting ghosts for a living and you are indeed able to venture into that ‘normal’ life that you have wanted since you got married, only to find out that you r wife has been under the spell of this creature. You destroy the creature and promise her that things will be different between you. Things go swell for a while, you teach at a college, your relationship with your wife is back on track, you still get to hang out with your buddies, life is good.

And then Janine gets pregnant. While you are thrilled the aforementioned ghosties are not. They come out of hiding and pledge to deal with the problem, they do not want little Spengler’s running around trying to out-invent their father with new ways to torture ghosites. So they all start coming after babies, and attacking pregnant women and during this time a spirit named Vego decides that while everyone is going after babies he might as well take over the body of one and try to rule the world, after all, that gets one out of the way right? So you have to go and save humanity again and bust ghosts, but you and your friend Ray have realized what all of this is about. The solution-- make it look like some outsider is the father of Janine’s baby, albeit an outsider that can be trusted. So you call on Louis Tully to help you out and act out this charade. He will act as if he is the father, he will be the one seen out with Janine in public, he will ACT the part. After all he still owes you a favor, and he is a nice guy. So getting Louis to do this puts all of the ghosties off guard and they hold off on the baby napping and continue with their typical hauntings and such, which is fine, and now all you have to worry about is this Carpathian in a painting, which is also fine, and of course one day explaining to your children how it came about that uncle Louis’ name is on their birth certificates. But that will work out too because you recently read about this new technology called DNA testing that will allow scientists to prove paternities without a shadow of a doubt.


Anyway that’s my version of events, one where two parents do what they have to do to protect their children and Louis is just a nice guy trying to help. It helps me sleep at night, so it works, lol.


And now a question for Fritz. If you were to throw out the timeline and just write an E/J story how would it go? Would you keep the Janine and Louis marriage for the sake of angst, or would they have gotten together early like my version or something else, like after "J,YC"?

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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 4:32 pm 
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Quote:
And now a question for Fritz. If you were to throw out the timeline and just write an E/J story how would it go? Would you keep the Janine and Louis marriage for the sake of angst, or would they have gotten together early like my version or something else, like after "J,YC"?


There was a time, early on, when I was thinking of writing it differently. I picked the different answer to "JYC or EGB" and set it up so that the Spenglers got married in 1991, the Twins were born in 1992, and they would have been about five years old in 1997, necessitating retconning of EGB continuity. Janine's introduction in "Darkness at Noon" would have involved her bringing Egon some paperwork he left at home, and she'd remark that she was glad she rescued them before the Twins colored in all the Venn diagrams. It really wouldn't have affected much of the rest of the series, though "The Crawler" would have been pretty much rendered Apocryphal.

I abandoned that idea when "Clinically Insane" turned into such a big hit, and I realized that, having used Official Canon in arguments with certain anti-Egon/Janine parties, it'd make me look rather hypocritical to then turn right around and willfully ignore parts of EGB canon.

Still, you can see some echoes of that earlier retcon concept in a few of the stories in the Apocrypha section:

Till the Night Closes In, Keeping It Real, and the Apocrypha version of Charlie Takes the Fifth were all written in that conjectural continuity, branching off in alternate directions from "Invasion of the Danish Snatchers". (The Apocrypha version of Future Shocks is also in continuity with these stories) There would have been something vaguely similar to the main concept of "Gemini Rising" that would have occurred in 1992.

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PostPosted: February 10th, 2008, 4:35 pm 
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JASON: yes, I do believe that Fritz made sure to make that wedding as sterile and dry as possible...I believe it was at City Hall? That makes it a little easier to swallow but STILL...the whole "lifelong commitment"thing , that she actually went through with it, that common sense, sentimentality, her gut instinct and sheer emotion didn't arise any fear and she didn't hightail it out of the hall like a Runaway Bride, just irks me. Let alone that she actually got through the proposal and said "yes" *shivers*...not my Janine folks. No-Sir-ee-Bob.

GHOSTDIVA: Yes, I AM IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM knocking Fritz's stories, interpretations, etc. Writing is fabulous, fantastic character development, etc. And I do appreciate the fact that while there is a marriage, it is carefully made to be as unappealing and insignificant as possible, and Fritz has done a great job making that clear in much of his fanfiction. But that lends itself to ask WHY even include it at all? I thought the point of fanfiction was to add closure and create ideal situations that fulifilled us in ways the rest of the GB movies/animation/comics did not. (Okay, upon reading that, I realize that is not true, given the amount of angst out there) but you know what I mean. It is still possible to create that angst/drama/seperation anxiety what have you, without a marriage.

I just see marriage as a REALLY BIG DEAL (not implying that others don't). One that should not be entered into on the guise of trying to make someone jealous, settling for the only guy that gives you the time of day, or because your true love ignores you. Bottom line is, I can't respect someone who gets married under those pretenses. I can understand someone who dates with those motives, but I can't respect someone who takes it all the way to the covenant of marriage. And truth be told, I actually respect the character of Janine and the aforementioned members of the Ghostbusters. I even respect Louis (although I could do without him, I respect his character)...therefore, even from the Louis perspective, it is a disservice to him to have him tied to a woman who doesn't love him, and have him caught up in this mess of a loveless marriage. Hence my strong feelings that the marriage need not exist.

I'm not trying to change canon, just simply challenging why it is, when there were so many different avenues that it could have taken to explain 'the missing years', without an actual marriage *hork* taking place between Janine and Louis, when it was absolutely not necessary.

And Fritz, you know I love your stories and everything thus far. I am just stating the truth, which is, in rgbforever's canon, I sorta dismiss that whole marriage debacle. And it seems like a lot of die hard E/J fans probably have their own 'version' of how things went down (i.e. ghostdiva)...

No disrespect intended, of course. ;)


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PostPosted: February 25th, 2008, 9:35 am 
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Due to something being brought to my attention in another thread, a change has been made to the Timeline, the Fact List, a few GBNY pages, and quite a few of the fan fics.

When I started writing the Timeline ten years ago, I knew that Janine referred to having a sister at least once, and she made an onscreen appearance in "Janine's Day Off". However, as she was never directly given a name in the show (Janine did talk to someone named "Shirl" on the phone at one point, so a case could have been made--but I decided it was ambiguous and I didn't really like the name "Shirl Melnitz") so I gave her the name Deann.

Well, I don't know how this slipped past me for all these years (I honestly wonder if that scene was cut by the local station--to make room for more commercials, of course!) but it turns out that, in the EGB episode "Fallout", Egon says to Janine point blank "Say hello to your sister Doris for me". I rechecked it on Youtube and everything--it's definitely there.

:roll:

I've just blotted Deann Melnitz Irwin from the Ectozone pages, in favor of the more canonically supported Doris Melnitz Irwin. There's no other changes than the name--fortunately for me, since the "real" name starts with the same letter, I could leave in all the parts where Janine calls her "Dee" and it still works.

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PostPosted: February 26th, 2008, 12:18 pm 
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How did you ever fix it so fast!?

Sorry about all of the confusion, I guess people really do learn new things every day, lol. Thank goodness for youtube, eh? (Okay maybe we won't go that far, lol.)

I feel kind of sad though, my sister's name is Deann, and now I feel a little less like a Melnitz.

Who knew EGBFan's game could be so timeline altering? LOL
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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2008, 6:26 am 
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I'm beginning to wonder exactly where Charlene's future ends up. With all the rest of her generation having their lives pretty much mapped out now, maybe it's time we put our heads together and reached a decision for her?

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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2008, 8:58 am 
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Quite true. All we have is the nugget in "Future Shocks" that mentions her checking the Eiffel Tower. That could be made to mean any number of things.

I'm welcome to any and all ideas here.

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PostPosted: March 3rd, 2008, 9:46 pm 
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Just off hand, I think that Charlene would deffinately want to stay connected to GB in some way and she would be really inclined to keep up with everyone, like the historian of the group. Like the family member in everyone's family that keeps all the family records and pictures and stuff, she would just keep up with the ghostbuster family. I also think she would like to stay in the adventure of it all, maybe she helps new teams get started in other places and travels the world. I deffinately think that she should marry a construction worker that one of her Uncles introduces her to. That would be a fun story. It would alos give us a chance to look closer into Winston's family.

That's all I know after thinking about this for --25 seconds.

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PostPosted: March 4th, 2008, 7:34 pm 
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I thought that for her first introduction in to being a active member of GB was to have her start out on the GBWC .

a place were she can learn all she needs to with out her father looking over her shoulder or with out her being love struck with a team mate.

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PostPosted: March 4th, 2008, 9:19 pm 
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Well, she's still only fifteen, so realistically I'd say, knowing what I know of child labor laws, she'll have to be at least sixteen to do much of anything, and without a special waiver (like the one Andy had) she couldn't be a field agent until she's at least 18.

That being said...

I think I like the idea of Charlene hanging around as a sort of "Ghostbuster intern" about a year from now more than I should. She turns 16 in December of this year, so that really isn't that far off...and December 2010 isn't that much longer away either...

One of the stories I hope to do once Gozer is done is a development for Eric Stantz scheduled for Fall of 2008. Being able to talk about his mother will certainly help with that.

Edit: Heh. #1500

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